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About this episode
In this episode of all about business, James Reed is joined by award-winning Director and veteran ad-man Paul Weiland OBE. He’ll share how some of Britain’s most well-loved ads were created, how to navigate the often-tricky client/agency relationship and answers the question every marketer wants to know: how to create a profit-growing campaign everybody loves.
02:24 Paul’s journey into advertising
05:33 early career and breakthroughs
09:01 directing commercials and building a reputation
20:14 the Walkers Crisps campaign
25:47 celebrity endorsements in walker's ads
26:09 the power struggle with supermarkets
28:15 what makes a good client?
29:58 the evolution of the Gary Lineker campaign
31:58 the importance of continuity in advertising
36:10 the changing landscape of advertising
42:06 from ads to feature films
45:11 advice for the next generation
48:19 reflections and future outlook
Interested in watching one of Paul’s movies? Check them out here.
Follow James on LinkedIn.
Watch the hand-built by robots ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fXV6KzhBbM
Watch the infamous Gary Lineker ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuKgMSUU6-c
About the speaker
Paul is a Writer, Producer and Director whose credits include Blackadder and Mr Bean. He’s also directed 1000s of popular TV ads, most notably, the Gary Lineker Walkers ads. In 2015, he received an OBE for his services to advertising and the creative industries.
[00:00:00] James: Welcome to all about business with me, James Reid, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
In the age of ad blockers and skip now buttons, is it still possible to create memorable ads that make millions of people want to buy from you? And how can you build a successful brand that keeps your customers coming back for more? Joining me today on All About Business is Paul Weyland, OBE. Paul is a writer, producer, and director whose credits include Back Adder and Mr.
Bean. He's also directed thousands of well loved TV ads. And in 2015 received an OBE [00:01:00] for his services to advertising and the creative industries. That's why he's the perfect person to talk to us about creating award winning ads. that connect with your audience time and time again. So Paul, thank you so much for coming in to talk to me today.
Paul, full disclaimer here, Paul and I go back a way. He's an old friend of mine, a good friend of mine, and he worked on Read as a client for many years in his capacity as a director, creative, producer of our ads. And Paul, it was you that conceived the Love Mondays idea. Two decades or more ago and we have stuck with that as you know religiously we got
[00:01:43] Paul: stuck with it Oh,
[00:01:44] James: you see we have stuck with it.
And that's an important point. We want to come to in this discussion So you have you know a hugely distinguished career in advertising? You've been a writer director of over 1, 500 commercials. You've also been a film [00:02:00] director. You've done television shows Many of them very popular, like Blackadder, which I love.
And you have a huge amount of knowledge in this subject of marketing and advertising, which is big budget stuff for a lot of businesses, and really important to the success of a lot of products and services. Could you tell me, Paul, just a little bit about how you got into this game? How did you begin?
What's the story here?
[00:02:23] Paul: Yeah,
[00:02:23] James: basically
[00:02:24] Paul: left school at 16, so came in to advertising. Weirdly, the first job I ever got was in an ad agency as a messenger boy. running the streets just down the road, Fleet Street. I used to run with the artwork to all the printmakers on Fleet Street. Were you a sort
[00:02:39] James: of early day e mail at that point?
[00:02:40] Paul: Oh yeah, I was, yeah, and they always said, this is really urgent, you've got to get in a cab immediately and get this to the block makers. Because they used to do it on metal in the old days, all the ads. Not really good at much at school. And that was because I had asthma as a kid, you know, you don't want to hear it.
Like, if you probably pick up a bit of wheezing on the
[00:02:58] James: mic. [00:03:00] Thanks, Paul. Yeah, yeah, okay. It's inspiring your story because a lot of kids aren't very successful at school. So, what, what, yeah, talk us through that. What's your message to them?
[00:03:09] Paul: Don't listen, basically. The weird thing about it is that we all develop, at different stages.
And if you would see my school reports or any of those kids, it would be very reassuring. My first school report of fall was Paul is seriously handicapped by ill heath. The teacher had spelled health wrong. So it was almost like, and then from there you're almost marred. You start to fall behind and then it's like things like he doesn't have the creative bone in his body.
He just said he lacks imagination. And so basically you can get beaten down. But for whatever reason, there was this guy in life that I did think that I could appeal, I could do something. And my dad used to own, he's not around anymore, but he had a terrible hole in the wall in Watney Street Market where I used to be forced [00:04:00] to go as a kid and work on the stall outside.
And I always remember that, I loved the feeling, because in those days, you know, all the soap powders used to give free gifts and I started bartering with people, like calling people, come get your free gift, do this. And then one day, I think I was, I realized the power of advertising when someone came into the shop and asked for a bar of BO, which was soap.
And what they really meant was Lifebuoy. Right. And what the advertising had got wrong was that they thought the bar was called BO, not Lifebuoy. What?
[00:04:33] James: I
[00:04:34] Paul: mean, BO has a certain meaning. Well, because in that day, their campaign was someone would go up to someone and whisper in their ear, Beep. Oh, I see. Like, you smell.
You smell. Yeah, yeah. And then Lifebuoy would come on. Use Lifebuoy and you won't have BO anymore. Oh. But the consumer had picked up the message that the bar itself was called BO. Oh. So then I thought, well, I think advertising needs a bit of help here. And I think that was [00:05:00] the early trigger for me thinking, maybe I could do this better than the guys in advertising.
And then, I don't know, I, I, it might, but it's not an appropriate story. This is true. And whether it did trigger my introduction into that world. And then, yeah, so I started off as a runner, really cheeky. I don't know where the confidence came from, but they had never seen anything like it in a 16 year old before.
And then within a week, a job came up in production where things are printed and you have to put everything on a proof and it's taken round to all the departments in the ad agency. And at that point, advertising was full of trainees that come from big universities, Oxford, Cambridge. And everyone either wanted to be in the creative department or do media, whatever.
So this job came up in production, print and production, and no one wanted it. So after a week, I was off the streets, and in my own office, and that's how I started working in the agency, got to know all the creative department, and get all the account people, [00:06:00] whatever. And then, I started to Which agency was this?
And this was called Horny Blowcocks Freeman. They've always got long names, haven't they? They've gone, yeah. They were in Bowalter House in Knightsbridge, where those fancy flats are now. And yeah, basically, I then started to rewrite the ads. So not only were I taking the ads into the creative department for them to approve, I started saying, do you think this would be a better headline than you've written?
That's brave. It was brave. Um, really. And I think. You were pushing your ideas forward. Yeah. Yeah. Just, and then I was, yeah, just very, yeah. And I got away with it because I was young.
[00:06:35] James: We're delighted that you're watching this episode. Please hit the subscribe button if you'd like to receive more insights and action of advice that will help your business grow.
It was an interesting time, and then, um That's an interesting point, though. If you're young, you can get away with stuff in a way. a chance, and Yeah, because you're not really
[00:06:56] Paul: a threat. No. You're kind of entertainment for [00:07:00] them. Yeah. And what is interesting, so, then what happened is the creator started to take me under their wing, and then they said to this creative director, yeah, he was like the creative director of the agency, who was called Eugene Taylor, a big guy, braces, big cigar from the United States of America.
So real madman stuff. Yeah, really. And basically, I don't think he got my humor. And after a year, they said, we want to bring him in as a trainee copywriter, and he didn't want to know. So I thought, well, I'll stop this. And I got, they put me in touch with a headhunter, a guy called Stephen Fruin. And yeah, I then got a, he got me a job, so, so by this time I changed your job.
Changed your life basically? Yeah. Cut. Cut and pasted my own ads. And that got a bit of help from the Gregs department and I had a portfolio, and then I got my first job. And then Where was that? It was called Roy's London. They were a Manchester based agency and I [00:08:00] went in there as a trainee copywriter.
And the first. Gig I got there was they were pitching for the RSPCA and I came up with this line at campaign against cruelty today And there was a lot of cats with bricks around their necks and they won the business from there. I started to win awards and started to make a creative reputation for myself and then from there at 25 literally left there and joined Alan Parker film company and became a commercials director Right, and that's when you started standing behind the camera directing the commercials?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I started directing because I'd already had a reputation and won quite a lot of awards as a writer, so that was interesting, and this is what I'll get onto later, is that my background with Pure Appetite, although it was quick, It was pure advertising, and I loved the moving image, and I was good at being able to sell and make, put that, being able to sell into an [00:09:00]
[00:09:00] James: ad.
Yeah. So, what made you successful as a copywriter, if someone said you know,
[00:09:05] Paul: really. Again, it's really weird, because if you've never been any good at anything, and suddenly you're faced with a blank piece of paper, and someone says, take for instance, you know, There's a car called, um, a Fiat Strada and we want to do the first two minute commercial and all you've got is a blank piece of paper and then you go through the process and whatever and then I come up with a line hand built by robots because it was the first car that was actually made.
Right. Because there was a lot of talk of Friday cars, that if you got a Friday car Oh yeah, they weren't as good? They weren't as good, because everyone was knocking off early, and there was a spanner in the works or whatever. So the idea that, and I remember seeing something on Tomorrow's World, which was always that program where you saw the future and whatever, and they had a clip from the Fiat factory where the car's being made by robots, and originally the car was called Rip Mode.
And [00:10:00] here's someone who knows nothing about classical music or opera. I never thought Ritmo sounds like Figaro. I know what, why don't I put, so I took the piece of footage from the show, Tomorrow's World, and I put Figaro onto it, as the, so it became a balletic opera, with the car being, but. And was that a two minute commercial?
It was a two minute commercial, and then went on to win every single award, and Hugh Hudson directed it, and yeah, it's, it became one of the most, you know, really famous. And this is quite a long
[00:10:30] James: time ago. So now Roblox is sort of ubiquitous. Yeah, exactly. I went to Toyota the other day and they're everywhere.
It's interesting. So, so then you went into directing commercials and you've done over 1, 500 I believe in your company that you've built, more than 3, 000.
[00:10:46] Paul: Yeah.
[00:10:47] James: What makes a good commercial, you know, the 30 second on the TV? Give me some examples of ones you've made that you feel have worked really well.
[00:10:56] Paul: One of the very first ones I made as a director [00:11:00] was for Hamlet cigars for dinner. I remember that, the music again. Yeah, air on a G string. So I didn't come up with this line, this was a CDP campaign, but it was like, happiness is a cigar called Hamlet. Yeah. Obviously there were hundreds and hundreds of commercials made on that theme and each of them was when something goes wrong and then, and I did a very early one.
Which was called Bunker, where you don't see anyone, but all you are, your camera moves in on, in a bunker. And it's a golfer trying to get the ball out of the thing. I remember it, I remember that, it was very good. And again, so simple. Yeah. And you go in and basically I had like ten people in, all with different tasks.
One throwing the ball out, one throwing the sand up, one grunting. Then one with a little, uh, lightened scoff. And then happiness. Yeah, and he can't get the ball out. And all you hear is And there's divots flying in the air. And it was all done, you know, in 30 [00:12:00] seconds with one shot. And it just worked, and again, quite lucky, and that commercial then went on to win lots of awards, because of its simplicity.
Yeah. And again, it's almost like, yeah, it was just, kick started my career. Happiness is a cigar called happiness.
[00:12:14] James: We can't advertise cigars anymore. No, no, no, which is a shame, because you like a cigar. I do occasionally, I think that ad might have had a lasting effect on me, of course. Exactly, yeah, but these were Often after a bad date.
These were thin cigars, as well. No, you
[00:12:25] Paul: liked the
[00:12:25] James: big ones. I don't know if I can get a, if I can find a fat one. The owner of a big successful company cigar. You're giving away all my secrets. I help people stop smoking. Alright, okay. So, alright, so that's, that's, that's very interesting but you say you, in my experience because as I said you worked with us over many years and you kept, you have a very um, clear business view of what a commercial is for.
Yeah. Which I found really helpful and inspiring because you had to clear it. understanding what the end result should be for a client [00:13:00] or a company using your services. Can you explain that a little bit?
[00:13:03] Paul: Yeah, look, first of all, it's really interesting because I was a bit of a weird one because most directors are a bit kind of arty and they kind of like the fashionable shots and it all looks great, but it's almost like a lot of the time it was like a camera in search of an idea.
And what I was always really keen on is that you found a client's voice. And it's like, and for me, it was like, like me, I want you to like me, because if I'm going to sell something to you, I have to build a relationship with you. And you have to either understand my sense of humor or where I'm coming from, or my serious intent and whatever.
And I think that running my, you know, 25, Alan Parker decides he was very famous doing ads. But he don't want to do commercials anymore because at that point commercials were Seen as part like especially in timeout reviews when he started doing movies the commercial director Alan [00:14:00] Parker Again, like it
[00:14:01] James: just tell us what movies he made because some of the younger
[00:14:04] Paul: viewers might not know So basically he made one of his first movies was Bugsy Malone And then he made me like sprayer shoot the moon the commitments.
He was really You And I learned a heck of a lot from him. And he was the one that inspired me to want to be a director. Um, and again, I was pushy with him. I used to write the ads and give him the ads to direct and watch him and then suggest things. Why don't you try this? And he would go, Fuck off. Go and sit down.
Go and sit down. Shut up. Oh, I don't just try it once, right?
[00:14:41] James: Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. So you weren't deterred by a bit of abuse, then? No, love the abuse. Keep coming back for more. For more. And then what happened? And then what happened? He'd
[00:14:50] Paul: go, ah, right, I'll do one that you're suggesting. And it ended up, always ended up in the car.
And then I started to think, actually, maybe I [00:15:00] could do this, yeah? And that's, and then basically a year after being with him, he thought, I'm closing my company, if you want to take it over. So at 26 I basically took over the Alan Parker Film Company and changed the name to Paul Whelan Film Company. I didn't know that.
So you
[00:15:15] James: took over the commercial
[00:15:16] Paul: arm of his business. Yeah, and he didn't want it anymore. He lived to regret that. Cause then I, what happened? Well, it was very successful and it made a lot of money. And he never, literally, he never got over it, to be honest with you. He blames his business. Well, it wasn't, like, you can't trade on someone else's name, because it's your name that's been out there.
But I just took on the rent, and the staff, and everything, yeah? And the accountants, and whatever. So, yeah, and Paul Weyland Phillips. Yeah, Paul Weyland Phillips company and it became quite, you know, obviously over the years. I was 30 odd, 35 years. It became pretty successful. It was the foremost advertising production
[00:15:58] James: company in London.[00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Paul: I'm glad you said that. During the heyday of advertising. Because I thought you could have put that in your intro, that I'm one of the most successful commercials directors of all time. I would say that,
[00:16:08] James: yeah, yeah, okay Paul. You can see why this guy's good at advertising. Yeah, I'm good at selling myself.
You've got to be good at selling, yeah. So, so you, you um, you had this company at 26, which is interesting because that's the. Exactly the same age my dad was when he started Reed. Yeah. So I think, you know, that's a good age, isn't it? Yeah. For a young entrepreneur. Yeah. Don't have too many obligations or attachments.
And I
[00:16:31] Paul: think that what you have is a huge amount of naivety. And naivety to me is the key to success. Because there's not much you're frightened of. It's a bit like in the early days going into these highly paid copywriters and saying, have you thought about this? You, I wasn't frightened because you're a bit of an idiot to be honest.
But this turned this into a strength. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, the naivety is the thing. So when I then started [00:17:00] directing, it was almost like all these cameramen that I worked with, you know, I worked with the first assistant that did all David Lean's films and whatever. And I look at it, like, let's try that.
And they're all right. No one's ever really, you know, 'cause you don't know really
[00:17:15] James: what you're doing. So David Lean, we are talking, Lawrence Vera Rago Bridge, another great, great film director. This was, he's, and
[00:17:24] Paul: then you're working with all these cameramen that worked with all these legends at the time, you know, making movies, but their bread and butter was also in the downtimes making commercials.
So you got to work with delight the best. crew and the best people and the best operators, but they would always say to me, you know, look, you know, you are very, very young. You don't really know how it all fits together. But there was a weirdness that you just go, I want to try that. I'm going to try that.
And yeah, but at the heart of it, my, from the very beginning, I was aware that clients are paying a lot of money for this [00:18:00] and it has to deliver because if it doesn't deliver and they, the sales don't increase. And it's not just the commercial, which we can go on to afterwards, but the, then I would feel that I was taking their money under false pretenses, but I was very strong on the idea that leave it to me, leave it to us.
We know what you need and we'll do it. The minute you start being prescriptive and saying, but we want this and we want that and blah, blah, blah. Of course I'm listening and I know what you want. But, you have to leave it to us, because we're in the entertainment business and the selling business, and you have to do both.
Because if you're just doing the selling, you know, this is where we're at mostly today. It's just about flogging, flogging, flogging, with no personality. Now they think there's personality, but in my view So
[00:18:57] James: the advertising has lost [00:19:00] something in that sense.
[00:19:01] Paul: Yeah, I need today. Yeah, and it's easy for me to sit here because you know, I came from a period where Creativity was a thing where, you know, people did say, you know, talked about the ads, you know, you very rarely, of
[00:19:14] James: course, we all watch the same ITV shows and then we all saw the same ads, I suppose, and then we would talk about them.
And have you seen the Levi's ad, or the Cadbury's ad, or the Guinness ad, or the Guardian ad, or whatever. You
[00:19:25] Paul: kind of always look forward to the next, if it was a good campaign, you always look forward to the next. Yeah. Because you will become part of that campaign. You were a participant in that campaign.
And you might not like the next one as much as you liked the previous one, but then maybe the next one along and
[00:19:44] James: Or one campaign you're famous for is the Walker's Crisps campaign with Gary Lineker, I think. How many of those did you make? Oh, well, I think I probably made about, ooh, 200. Two hundred walkers, I had no idea it was that many.[00:20:00]
I thought you were going to say thirty or something. No, no, no, no. It was
[00:20:03] Paul: over twenty two years. It was over
[00:20:04] James: twenty two years. So, talk me through that. What was the original concept there, and why did it run so long, and why was it so successful in your view?
[00:20:14] Paul: Here's the thing that you can never The second guess, what is really going to work?
You can get a feeling of what's good, but is it really going to have the magic dust? And that was basically that Gary Lineker had been away. Gary Lineker was this guy who'd never been booked, never got a card. Had an impeccable As a footballer. Yeah, as a footballer and as a gentleman. Had never been booked.
Never been booked, never got a card. So He was basically in Japan, came back from Leicester, where Walkers is made, was originally. A local lad. Yeah, a local lad, and basically PepsiCo owned Ball Walkers a while back. And he came back, and we, John Webster and these two guys, Malcolm, I can't, Green and someone [00:21:00] else, came up with this guy, uh, No More Mr.
Nice Guy, and the idea was that Gary comes back and he's a local hero, and everyone was patting him on the back, and it's a beautiful, like, documentary, really gorgeous looking ad. And we tell you, I mean, he's still in there, like Well, he's in Leicester or something. Yeah, he's in Leicester, walking. He comes back on the train and the, you know, the station mask Everyone's being feted.
Yeah, like, feting and like And the music was Welcome Home. Yeah. Which was very sentimental and it looked great. And then he sits down on a bench and a kid looks up at him, he's got a packet of Walkers, and he goes Ooh, he mouths, oh, it's Gary Denninger, right, because he was a hero, you know. Yeah, well, he got the golden boot in the World Cup and everything, yeah.
And then he, the kid, like, offers him a crisp, and Gary takes a crisp, and obviously he enjoys the crisp so much that he then takes the packet of crisp
[00:21:49] James: from
[00:21:49] Paul: the kid, of the kid, and this was like Not quite so heroic. Unbelievable. Yeah, not so He then basically Was that your idea? No, it wasn't my idea. This was the idea of the ad [00:22:00] agency.
Basically then what happens, he then runs off and the kid chases him trying to get his Chris back. Interestingly, the original ending, which was better for me, was that Gary then sat there on the bench. eating the crisps and the kids are like going when's he going to give me my packet back. He finishes the pack, screws it back, screws it into a ball and hands it back to the kid.
So which
[00:22:25] James: ending do you go for?
[00:22:26] Paul: Well, we had to go with the running off ending because the client didn't like the idea that we screwed up the packet. So because
[00:22:35] James: of their product. Your idea is better though, isn't it? What? Because, you know, if you're sitting with someone eating and sharing a bag of crisps, you always wonder, are they going to eat them all?
Yeah,
[00:22:44] Paul: but here's the thing. Right, so this is the thing where trust starts to develop, right? Where, basically, I think that, yeah, I probably put up a fight. That was, we shot both endings. But the client just when you can't screw up our [00:23:00] logo or up in your thing and you Matt it would have been a better commercial But even so that he runs off which I thought was a little bit corny and then the kid chases him But obviously caught on the press got behind it.
So it was what he was stealing. I mean he stole The idea that he basically would have eaten the Chris and then he's still stealing the Chris, but there's something funnier I think about that ending So that was the first. Yeah, that was the first. And then that got like, so it was only meant to be a one off.
Yeah. And then the client realized, because his publicity's been talked about on, on the radio, he's been mentioned in the press. And then, We did another one, which was, they thought, right, quick, let's get on to this, and then we did another one, which wasn't as good. And then, oddly, we then did one with Gazza.
Right. Where Gary gets, so we weren't really sure The famous
[00:23:54] James: Paul Gascoigne. Yeah, yeah. Another great player.
[00:23:56] Paul: Where basically, Gary is at a football match, and Gazza's behind, and [00:24:00] Gazza tries to pinch one of his crisps. Right. You could probably find these and if you want to show them in the podcast. We
[00:24:07] James: could put them over here.
[00:24:08] Paul: And then we do this thing because Gaz had cried at the quarter, where was it in the final? The semi final, unfortunately. Yeah, the semi final. I remember it well. We put tears in his eyes and whatever. This was in
[00:24:19] James: 1990s, a long time ago. Yeah,
[00:24:21] Paul: and this is where again, Um, you have slight rails with the agency.
'cause the agency wanted even just to have tears run his down his cheek. I wanted to push it and make it a cartoon, so I kind of put pipes up these tear ducts and there was a water machine. Seriously? Yeah. Yeah. Quiet. Squirting the tears out and the, I used to go, no, no, you have to carry it. We just want the tears.
And of course when we retouched the thing out, it looked hilarious because it was a cartoon. That really established the campaign, even though it wasn't Gary nicking the crisps, it was Gary protecting his crisps. [00:25:00] But then from there on, we went on and did like a hundred But these were obviously
[00:25:03] James: a cherished product after that, you know, everyone wanted Walker's crisps.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:06] Paul: And then it just went on and on and on. And then it was almost like a Woody Allen movie, where all these celebrities would want to be in
[00:25:13] James: Walker's ads. Yeah. So you had an interesting, um, experience with one of these Walker's campaigns, where it was a new product, I think. And they spent a lot of money on a campaign and then Tesco's sort of hardballed them.
Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that because that's quite interesting as a sort
[00:25:30] Paul: of commercial story. Here's the thing, right, and everyone wants, obviously, advertising builds success. Brands become really popular, people want to buy it. And so here's the thing, it's not really just about, um, the ad. The ad is just one of the many things, as you know, tools in your arsenal to get people to buy the product.
Obviously supermarkets were getting more and more powerful and where you were in the supermarket was key. So [00:26:00] if you weren't on that center gondola or whatever as you walk in or whatever and they put Pringles there, that would be a bit of a problem. So there were always issues with The supermarkets, where they would say they know you're doing a really big campaign and they know you've spent a load of money.
Last minute, they say, you have to do a deal with us. Because if you want that gondola, if you want all your points out there, you're going to have to sell us your product at a very reduced price. And often, they would fall out. And so there was no point in running the ads, because obviously that was their main Oh, so the
[00:26:37] James: whole investment was made in the ad, and then yeah, and
[00:26:39] Paul: then they, and then they would then come to an agreement down the line, and then, yeah, but it was, yeah, the more successful the product becomes, the more the supermarkets played hardball with them on price.
Right, that's interesting,
[00:26:54] James: because they're getting more
[00:26:55] Paul: margin, I suppose. Yeah, and then that means that they then think, well, [00:27:00] can we really spend all that money on the advertising if at the last minute? Tesco or Sainsbury's or whoever, Audi or Or Ratchet on us, yeah. Yeah, are gonna kind of do a dirty on you.
And I think that, you know, it went on quite a long.
[00:27:15] James: If you're looking for ways to market your business online or are ready to kickstart your career in digital marketing, check out Read Learning's digital marketing course. Packed with engaging videos and practical resources, it has everything you need to take your business or marketing career to the next level.
The link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the episode. What makes a good client? You know, if you're, if you want to commission an agency or a creative team to do some marketing or advertising work, what's the, what's the best way of going about that? I'm glad we're filming
[00:27:51] Paul: this because I'm gonna point at you.
Are you? You
[00:27:54] James: are, you
[00:27:55] Paul: are a
[00:27:55] James: good client.
[00:27:56] Paul: Well, why, what did I do even by mistake? Because, you [00:28:00] again, like, think, I want to, I want my brand to entertain. I want to get the message across, but at the same time, I want it to entertain. And so many clients, you know, the best work that was ever, you know, like Heineken Refreshes the Paths, that, um, Other Beers Cannot Reach, there was a client called Tony Simmons Gooding at Whitbread, and he had a really brilliant relationship with a guy called Frank Lowe who ran CDP, and he trusted Frank.
So Frank said to him, Tony, follow me with this. And he was right, you know, and those campaigns went on and That's a relationship after all, isn't it? Yeah, it's about a relationship, but the big problem with relationships, like you and I have a good relationship, we've known each other for a long time, you kind of do trust me, but then what happens, the team below you, your marketing team, right, also kind of want their say.
Do you know what I mean? They just don't want [00:29:00] The owner of the company or the CEO who has a relationship with the director or the great director of the agency. They then feel a bit sidelined. So you, as a director or as an advertiser, you're always dealing with that structure. It's how can you keep the marketing team happy so they feel they're making a contribution.
And normally this situation has never really been resolved because in the end what killed Walkers was that I had the relationship with Martin Glenn, but we had a relationship and there was a trust built up and every time, and with Gary Lineker, because Gary also is like, he's really small, as we know, you know, the gold hangout thing now.
Yeah, but he's just everything he touches turns to gold, right? He was a terrible actor when I first got him. You know, he was a footballer, really self conscious, but slowly he picked it up and he's got a good sense of humour. And obviously over the years the marketing team changes and they come in and they kind of, they [00:30:00] have to follow along because this is successful.
You're not going to break something that, well fix something that's not broken. But then as the campaign got older, you know, they then start researching things and they start, and then someone in a group, a housewife, or what the bloke said, Gary's looking a bit like Bruce Forsyth, right, i. e. he's getting old, right.
So they immediately jump on that and then they take well, we're not gonna get rid of Gary But could we just put him at the end of the ads? So let's come up with a different campaign, but Gary just signs off at the end and you think what you're talking about Sitting in a rocking chair or something No, no, your campaign is Gary Lineker.
What are you doing? You've been fetched in millions It's been the most successful Pepsi snack brand of all time. And the reason why it's called Walkers and not Lays, where it is everywhere else, is because it has been so successful. And basically, over the years, Gary and I, and it, you know, in a way, we had to play hardball.
And if there was clients on the shoe [00:31:00] that would ask us stupid questions, we would say, that's a stupid question. And we're not doing that, right? And, We were normally, right, and we had the benefit of the people up top, you know, because it, we Well, you kind of need a senior sponsor if you're going to do that.
No, no, no, because we were the guardians of the campaign, right? I knew what that campaign was, I knew the beasts of the humour, I knew when Gary nicked things, that he wasn't evil with his nicking. There was always a twinkle. And a lot of people didn't really get that. And then they were Anyway, so, in the end, we survived for 22 years, they bought us a fantastic dinner, they gave us plaques, they gave us gifts.
I. E., but then the new people that came in wanted a sell. They wanted rid of Gary, and they wanted rid of me, because we just had too much say. And they felt marginalized. But nothing lasts
[00:31:53] James: forever though, does it? No, no, it doesn't. But,
[00:31:55] Paul: at the same time, Gary Lineker does. You feel that could have carried on for some time.
Yeah, [00:32:00] but, again, how you take a campaign on is really important. They had this heritage, but they didn't take it on very well. And I will say now, you know, it's not Sour Grapes, bloody well it is. No, it's not Sour Grapes, but can you name me Walker's Ads? Alright, they're now using David Beckham and Gieri online.
But again, it's not that well done, it's not that funny, but it's gone. So they invested all these millions and millions and something. If they would have found someone to hand on the mantle to, they still had a campaign, Irresistibility. Irresistibility. And I, you know, over the years, obviously it changed because then there's health issues.
simple idea, irresistibility. Yeah, irresistibility.
[00:32:42] James: It's one word. Yeah. And that's the essence of that Walker's campaign. And I agree. I mean, when you've got something like that, why would you ever let it go? I think, I mean, you've commented on this, but a lot of people within companies, they sort of tire of the commercials sooner than the people outside who [00:33:00] might see them occasionally on their way to work or on the TV.
Yeah. So we threw that, I mean, the sort of
[00:33:05] Paul: Again, you know, for your example, I'll go back to Reed, right? We had Love Mondays and we, there were a few Iterations of there, the, you know, we changed it a bit. We had Hello, I'm James Re, which you obviously liked, but you made us, I, I enjoyed those. Yeah. Yeah. You made us cast a much handsome
That's a matter of opinion. Yeah, but we had it and we had a professional again and we moved it on and we made it interesting and whatever. But still, you know, the Martin team were always going, but you know, LinkedIn, is it LinkedIn? I can't remember. All right. Well, whatever. Yeah, those, those, they're in our world, those are around, they're new and they're a bit more modern, and they're this, and they're that.
And I'm thinking, but Reed, I trust Reed. I trust Reed with my career, Reed had been round. They've given, they've put so many people into jobs, they know what they're doing. And [00:34:00] you know, and then all the new technology comes along and it's like, well, you know, this is this and this is that. But ultimately, if you've got a good idea.
You stick with that idea, and it stands out. You don't have a huge budget, you know, you're not Walker's Grish, you're not PepsiCo, but you have a certain amount of budget, but what that means is that the promotions have to actually work harder, because you're running them
[00:34:21] James: a lot less. Yes. Yeah. Well, the Love Mondays idea.
Yeah. I love that. Putting two words together that aren't often associated with each other. Yeah. You know, that was your idea. Yeah. And, and that, that says everything about what we're trying to do in terms of helping people progress. Ultimately, there's no, I just feel
[00:34:41] Paul: that when a client has rules where within the first three seconds you have to say the product name, right?
That's a rule you come
[00:34:50] James: across?
[00:34:51] Paul: Yeah, a lot. This is, if you go to the, no, the, you know, you research something with one of these research companies. That's almost the first word, then. [00:35:00] Well, that's what I'm saying. So, what restriction does that put on the creative process? And, here's the thing, we, when we were growing up, we would, clients, we respected clients, they paid the bill, but the clients respected what you did.
And while you kept that working, but we can't, you know, you can do a great ad, but your tests don't decide that they're good. Want to charge you too much to be on the gondola aisle middle Dutch, then we can't really do anything about that He's advertising. Well, you're gonna ask me is advertising changing.
I think For the last 10 years of my career. Everyone was saying the 32nd ad is dead, you know, everything's gone on You know social media and whatever and then Sonny that really hasn't happens Still, we're still in the important part of the landscape. Well, and also with things like Netflix, right, suddenly they've gone into advertising.
You know, they're running ads. You need content. And [00:36:00] what clients really Amazon as well. Yeah. I plead with clients, right? Stop being prescriptive. Be creative with your product. Ask that of the agency. Look at what the agency have done for other products and say, I want that standard. You know, I want my commercial to stand out because there's so much noise out there that there is even more need for a creative
[00:36:26] James: approach to your product.
That's very well put, I agree. I mean there's so many channels now where you can put your message out. To have a strong creative message gives you a chance of being noticed only, right? Yeah,
[00:36:39] Paul: exactly, and that is about the amount of money you spend and whatever, but And that is it, it's competitiveness, off the scale competitiveness, so How
[00:36:52] James: do we notice you?
That's super I mean it's supercharged competitiveness, isn't it, in business now? Yeah. I mean, it's so [00:37:00] globalized, it's so sort of instantaneous.
[00:37:03] Paul: And I also think you need to, um, like, take chances. Right. All I can say is a lot of the great campaigns bond in research. Heineken refreshes the parts, other beers cannot reach, bond in research.
But The client was brave, they liked the idea, and it went ahead and then ran for years and years and years. I guess the
[00:37:27] James: research was done before it was launched. So someone in that organization said, Hey ho, this focus group, maybe we'll, we'll bin that. Yeah. That's interesting. Why did they do that? Or how did they have the confidence to do that, you know?
Leaders. That's about leadership and being clear about your objectives and having confidence in the people you work with.
[00:37:48] Paul: And kind of leadership is key, but also stakeholders, everyone's a stakeholder. What happens? You see, so, if there's so many opinions, what the hell? You know, [00:38:00] my sons are now doing what I did.
Yeah, that's interesting. I wanted to ask you about that. Yeah. Go on, ask me. They might want to edit.
[00:38:10] James: No, no, with your son. So I think it's interesting that your sons are both doing what you chose to do. Yeah, and I did everything
[00:38:14] Paul: in my power to talk them out of it. Did you? Yeah, because I had the time of my life, right?
I had freedom. And here's the thing, you know, Alan Parker once said to me, and the phrase stayed with me forever, or the advice, never let someone else set your standards. Because you're done for. You have to have your own vision and you have to go with it, no matter if right or wrong,
[00:38:42] James: stay in that lane. How does a company or a marketing team surface their particular narrative?
What's the process behind that? Have you got any thoughts that might help people? Yeah, I think
[00:38:54] Paul: that people and clients hide too [00:39:00] much behind research. And, you know, they've obviously, you know, CEOs have got into their position because they've relied on their instincts. And I would go, I would ask people to get raw.
Get with that blank piece of paper. Say, all right, well, you know, okay, so there's a bigger cream content, or there's a bigger this, there's a bigger that. Simple message, five words, what you want to say. And you are the client, you would live with that product, but don't, but just kind of make it as simple as you possibly can and then ask your agency to be as imaginative as they can with that concept.
And I know that it is really hard for clients because I think the trust has gone from the relationship with clients and ad agencies. And I think that there's this whole thing where agencies need to survive. And I think everything is tied up with fees and, you know, whether you pay retainers or whether it's a one off project or whatever.[00:40:00]
And I don't think advertising should be a one off thing. I think what you want to say is that I want, I need famous advertising for the next 10 years. And I want it to be a campaign that is consistent. I want continuity. If you work with an agency and you've been really happy with the result that you end up with, ask to use that director again, because then that director will feel an ownership towards you and to the brand.
There's too much jumping around. And a lot of that thing happens when You know, the, again, complications between the director, the production company, and the ad agency can be quite tricky because sometimes when they employ a really good director, they don't necessarily go back to him even though he's done a really good job on the last one because they don't want it to look like, oh, it's that director that's bringing in the magic dust.
We shouldn't care about that. Our only brief is, To make the client's product [00:41:00] successful. And, you know, as I said from the beginning, it's not just about the ad, it's about where it's placed, the distribution and whatever, but the ad is key and the ad. Now with Netflix and all these streaming people, ads are going to be coming back again.
You know, at one point it wasn't and it was then we went on, as I said, on social media with the bots and all the likes and were they really getting the likes? Yeah.
[00:41:26] James: So Paul, you went on and made feature films and so you moved from advertising into making feature films. How was that? Tell us about that.
[00:41:37] Paul: Um,
[00:41:38] James: different.
[00:41:39] Paul: Um, I think my big problem was that. I like doing advertising a lot. I always like coming back to the womb. Um, and, again, where I did come really unstuck was when my naivety finally caught up with me. If everything goes right, there's no story, there's no balance, so, and [00:42:00] you learn from
[00:42:01] James: I think that's really interesting, because you said your naivety caught up with you, but in any career, you know, we all have moments of failure or crisis or where things go wrong.
So, how did you deal with that? It must have been difficult at the time, but you went on and carried on being very successful. You kept doing more films, you did more ads.
[00:42:20] Paul: I think what happened was, again, it gets back to that line about allowing someone else to set your standards. So, this was with David Putnam, who was a big deal at the time, did lots of very successful films.
You know, worked with a lot of people. English directors on their first films became very successful and I ended up getting the turkey, you know And I went in there thinking I could make anything look because that's what I got used to, you know, like Basically, when you work in advertising, mostly you're polishing a turd.
Sorry to say that.
[00:42:52] James: Mostly, not always I am. Not always, but in
[00:42:55] Paul: nine times out of ten, you're perfuming the pig, and maybe that's a bit better than [00:43:00] polishing a turd, right? I'm getting the message. Okay, you're getting the message. So then you start to believe, well, I can make anything work. In a commercial, 30 seconds, you're gonna get away with it.
You put a bit of a joke in, there's a wink, there's an eye, there's a movement, there's a bit of an idea, you're gonna get away with it. You go to 90 minutes, you ain't gonna get off. You're gonna be really exposed because people can't, they're not gonna sit through 30 seconds of not being that great, but an hour and a half they leave to cinema, you know.
Luckily enough, you know, I'd been working with Richard Curtis on things previous to that, and then I met this guy Duncan Kenworthy, and I went to work with the Henson organization with Ansley McGillow, who is like seriously talented. And I got involved with storytellers and a thing called living with dinosaurs and suddenly the quality was back.
Yes. And I'd almost like, yeah, it was hard because it, yeah. Well, you persevered. I was [00:44:00] wounded, but I persevered, came back and just thought, yeah, I can get this back. And yeah, and then that started to win awards and, and the advertising thing kind of, they kind of took pleasure in, you know, Paul Waylan, like getting his comeuppance.
Right. 'cause that's another thing with a avatar, . Well,
[00:44:18] James: it's a lot, I mean, lot, a lot of people enjoy that when someone's successful. Success can say come up. Yeah. Like Mr. The cocky is, yeah.
[00:44:25] Paul: So, yeah.
[00:44:26] James: Uh, so you mentioned both your sons had followed in your footsteps into advertising. You also said that a lot of the younger generation haven't got, don't really get it or haven't got the experience.
What advice would you give to the next generation coming into this profession? to make themselves as capable of being successful and impactful as possible. Yeah.
[00:44:49] Paul: I mean, again, it's about confidence. Um, and as I said, when you don't know much, it doesn't matter because as long as you have an idea, because [00:45:00] what people are looking for is how, what voice, how do we find our voice and maybe through your voice that might happen.
But what I think people need is that if you young people, if they do a good job. They get the business again. Do you know what I mean? This is the trouble because it's almost too random. So then they don't care as much. I think.
[00:45:22] James: Oh, I see the relationship isn't being sort of developed and not being retained.
[00:45:26] Paul: Continuity to me is everything. Continuity between an ad agency and a client. A trust needs to be built up and then I think the work will then develop and the work will become solid and then we'll have great foundations. If you change your campaign, you change your idea every time. You just. And I just, yeah, I think rudderless, in a way.
Very interesting. And young people, again, you know, I say to my sons, they get really annoyed with me, I said, Dad, you know, we're doing, we've got this, well, I [00:46:00] better not go into detail, but they turn me on, I go, no, you don't want to do it, you don't understand, you don't understand the business now. You know, there's really big directors just taking on this stuff.
Because they just do it for the money, and what? I, you know, obviously, yes, I'd like to earn in the money, but I, I would turn down more stuff than I did. You know, this is Really? So you'd turn down opportunities? I would, in the, in my successful years, I would turn down probably nine out of ten commercial cents for me.
Because? Because I just didn't feel that I could bring anything to them, and they wouldn't be good enough. This is the point about your standards, setting your own standards. anyone, people would just take, just take the money. And my son say, well, you know, we, but dad, what are we going to do? Because there are no good, good ads out there.
So that is not a good message. I mean, the world has
[00:46:57] James: changed, hasn't it? The market has changed. [00:47:00] It's more, it's more all over the place. But
[00:47:03] Paul: what are the most successful things ever? The best album is always like a really good half film that sells the best film. Is normally a really good film. Your message is quality, quality.
Yeah, quality, quality. And then if clients, this is the thing, so clients get a bit carried away with their, you know, prescriptive idea and what all the bits that they want to put in. If directors were more honest and agencies were more honest that this isn't really good enough, then the client would have to go, alright, well can you make it good enough so someone will do the job?
[00:47:39] James: So I'm going to ask you two closing questions, Paul, which I ask everyone. Um, the first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning? Um,
[00:47:49] Paul: I've been lucky, really. I think that my environment and, in a way, the idea that you work your whole life and then suddenly you're not [00:48:00] going into the office anymore, which is, you know, I kind of, I don't like to say the R word because I am still involved with lots of things.
But The idea of, I love being in the country, I love nature, I love how it changes, and I love that it's not predictable. It's a bit like doing an ad, you don't really know what the outcome is going to be, but if you get that magic dust and you get the light right and it all feels good, that gets me out of bed.
And, you know, the lives that one leaves with your grandchildren, and yeah, I feel very, very lucky. I thought When my sell by date was over, which was a netherspool, because it happens, you know, the world changes. And people don't, you know, young people don't want necessarily that wisdom. They don't want, oh no, dad, it's different now, or, you know, you can't do that anymore.
Um, so I think that I'm pleased that I didn't [00:49:00] become this basket case that I don't have anything to do, because I seem to have lots to do.
[00:49:05] James: Yeah, I, I think the A lot of people listening to this will enjoy your wisdom, so. I think this is a good one. I feel we've bottled it and captured it, which is really useful, I think, and helpful.
So the last question I have is, where do you see yourself in five years time? I'm probably adding more holidays with you and Nicola. Really? I look forward to that. Where do I see
[00:49:27] Paul: myself? I don't know, James. I think that, you know, you just want to live life. I mean, and I think in The environment now with what's going on in the world is quite, you know, do I ever say in that?
And this is the thing, it's almost like the bigger picture is where do I see myself? You want the world to be a better place to live, you want the country and the economy, you want people to be as a unit, you want things to happen together, you want [00:50:00] continuity, you want people to feel proud of where they live.
So I would like to see that happen and be part of that instead of all the negativity that's going on. And I don't, again, I don't want to be, come across as being negative. Oh, it's all changed. It's not like, because there is always hope and there is always a way. Just people need to be confident and sure.
You're not always totally sure, but even if you're
[00:50:28] James: not, pretend you are. Okay. Stay hopeful. Yeah. Stay, stay confident. Things will improve. I believe that too. Thanks, Paul. Thank you very much. Thank you to Paul for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company.
If you're interested in a career in marketing or the creative industries, visit reid. co. [00:51:00] uk to find a job you'll love. The link is in the show notes. See you next time.
